2026-09-22 - Zoning Board of Appeals Meeting

Summary

Built from YouTube ASR auto-captions (no speaker labels; names often garbled). The Charlton Zoning Board of Appeals approved the prior minutes and completed its annual reorganization: Frank Lombardi stays on as chair, a member named Jason (as heard; the previous vice chair, Rob, was replaced) was elected vice chair, and Garrett (as heard) became clerk, all by voice vote. The one hearing was a petition for 45 Lake View Drive, presented by contractor Raymond Bonville (rendered "Bonavville") for a family camp destroyed by a fallen tree in 2022 and demolished in 2024-25. Curtis Meskus gave the building commissioner's timeline (tree strike April 2022, demolition started without a permit in October 2024, stop-work order and hazardous-material cleanup, demo permit February 2025, structure removed about March 2025) and explained that because the new house would sit 5 ft from each side line against the 15-ft side setback, the project needs 10-ft side-setback variances plus a special permit for a pre-existing nonconforming lot. Abutter Kim Mason of 51 Lake View Drive spoke generally in favor but worried about the new house being wider, taller, and closer than the old camp (about 7 ft off the line before). Midway through, the board noticed the plan submitted with the application showed a 12 x 23 ft rear (lakeside) deck that was absent from the plan the board had been given. The board explained it cannot grant relief for something not on the approved plan and wants one complete plan showing the deck, stairs, and exact side-line distances; a possible kickback to the Conservation Commission for roof drains and a retaining wall was also mentioned. The board voted to continue the hearing to October 27, 2026 (after a series of date conflicts), with a possible informal site visit by members in early October.

The board then resumed the multi-meeting revision of its Rules and Regulations: it accepted a new draft application withdrawal form (an extension-request form is still to come), kept the chair-discretion language on supplemental information submitted under 72 hours before a hearing, agreed to replace the "four votes" language with a reference to the statute so it tracks future legislative changes, struck "sitting" and the sentence about a sitting member drafting decisions (staff, Dale, drafts them, and parties sometimes submit proposed findings), flagged the variance-duration and one-time-extension provisions to be updated to the amended Chapter 40A, kept the reconsideration provision, and changed "denied" to "rejected" for incomplete submissions. Chapter 40B comprehensive permit authority was discussed in passing (the board has handled one full application and one amendment in 20 years). A final vote on the revised rules is expected at a later meeting. Last, the board voted to recommend Mary Beth Kazinski (Masonic Home Road, a mental health counselor) to the Select Board as a new alternate member. The new town planning director was present in the audience, and the meeting adjourned.

Issues discussed: 45 Lake View Drive Variance and Special Permit, ZBA Rules and Regulations Revision

Transcript

0:07 | Okay. So, this is um
0:10 | Tuesday, September 22nd, 2026. Charlton
0:13 | Zoning Board of Appeals. Going to call
0:15 | the meeting to order. And do we have We
0:18 | don't have Brandy Schiller here yet. All
0:21 | right. So, we'll get back to Brandy.
0:24 | So, uh let's first review and approve
0:27 | the minutes from the last meeting. Do we
0:29 | have those?
0:31 | All right. Do I hear anything on the
0:33 | minutes from the last meeting?
0:36 | No.
0:37 | Is there any motions?
0:38 | Motion to approve the minutes.
0:40 | There's a
0:41 | second.
0:41 | There's a second on the motion to
0:42 | approve the minutes as as
0:45 | printed. All in favor say I.
0:47 | I.
0:48 | All right. That carries.
0:50 | All right. ZBA member reorganization. So
0:53 | once a year we have to set who is going
0:55 | to be the chair, the vice chair,
0:58 | secretary.
1:01 | Um we don't need a treasure.
1:06 | Uh clerk. There's a clerk. It's chair,
1:08 | vice chair, and clerk, I think. Right.
1:11 | All right. So who are we going to do?
1:16 | Do what is it right now? I'm the chair.
1:18 | Who's the vice chair?
1:20 | Rob.
1:21 | Rob's the vice chair. It's been so long.
1:23 | So,
1:24 | and who's the clerk?
1:25 | Who has been without a clerk since
1:28 | What does a clerk What do they all do?
1:31 | No, I mean, the only thing I So, he just
1:34 | says it's just has a mirror to check to
1:36 | make sure that I'm still breathing. So,
1:38 | you know, the chair is dead. The vice
1:40 | chair, you can step in. Um, other than
1:43 | that, it's not You You have clerk stuff
1:46 | that might need to get signed, but
1:47 | that's about it. There's not really any
1:48 | kind of major roles for anybody or
1:51 | whatever.
1:52 | So,
1:54 | it's up to you. We want to reach I I
1:56 | think we should name I would nominate
1:58 | Rob as the vice chair again. Jason is
2:01 | the clerk.
2:02 | Jason,
2:05 | you want to nominate Jason as the vice
2:07 | chair? Jason as the vice chair.
2:09 | Garrett the clerk. You want to do that?
2:10 | Garrett the clerk.
2:12 | Is that a nomination?
2:13 | I like that.
2:13 | You want me to stay chair? Does someone
2:15 | else want to be chair?
2:16 | You can be chair.
2:17 | Oh, thanks.
2:19 | You earned it. I've earned it. You can
2:21 | give it up.
2:24 | I'll give it up if someone else wants
2:25 | it. I don't really care. Um, I guess
2:28 | not. All right. So,
2:29 | season starting. I can't
2:32 | be hunting from now till next year.
2:35 | That's right. That's right. All right.
2:38 | So, do we have formal nominations? Does
2:41 | someone want to make the formal
2:42 | nominations?
2:45 | Anybody?
2:46 | So, I'll nominate Jason as vice chair,
2:51 | Garrett as clerk. Is a second on that?
2:53 | Second. All in favor say I.
2:55 | I.
2:55 | All right. Who wants to nominate the
2:57 | chair then?
2:58 | I'll nominate the chair.
2:59 | All right. So, there's a nomination for
3:01 | the chair. Is a second on that?
3:03 | I second it.
3:04 | All right. All in favor say I.
3:06 | I. Motion carries. We took care of that.
3:09 | Um,
3:10 | this is
3:11 | Bonavville. I was at that meeting.
3:13 | Oh, okay.
3:15 | Wrong room, huh?
3:16 | He is the petitioner.
3:18 | Okay. Do we have something from him just
3:20 | authorizing him to speak?
3:22 | Yes.
3:22 | Okay. All right. So, you want to come
3:24 | over here? Oh, no. He can't. Can he Can
3:26 | the camera see him from there?
3:28 | Yes.
3:30 | They'll see him. You should sit over
3:31 | here.
3:31 | Yeah. You sit right there.
3:32 | Okay.
3:35 | This is property located at 45 Lake View
3:38 | Drive.
3:38 | Okay.
3:39 | All right.
3:40 | Can you state your name and for the
3:42 | record, please?
3:43 | Yep. Raymond Bonville.
3:44 | Okay. So, you want to tell us
3:48 | and you're not the owner of the
3:50 | property?
3:50 | No.
3:51 | Okay. So, you want to What's your
3:53 | I'm the I'm the uh contractor.
3:56 | Okay.
3:56 | And um there was uh a tree that landed
4:00 | on the house.
4:01 | Yeah.
4:01 | And um totally demolished it.
4:04 | Okay.
4:05 | It's been uh in the family for like
4:07 | three generations.
4:09 | And uh we're putting it into the same
4:11 | spot that uh it was originally in.
4:14 | Okay.
4:16 | So what you're just asking for a special
4:18 | permit or you asking for?
4:20 | Yes. Special permit code.
4:24 | Special permit and the bearings.
4:29 | The septic and the water is is
4:34 | it's town
4:36 | in town water too, isn't it?
4:38 | No.
4:39 | want it as well.
4:40 | Okay.
4:48 | So, are you changing the dimensions of
4:50 | the with the exist how long ago did the
4:52 | structure get the roof fall on it?
4:56 | About two years ago.
4:57 | Okay.
4:59 | We're not past the point where it's
5:01 | considered abandoned, is it?
5:04 | Well, when it's my turn, I'll lay out
5:06 | the chronology.
5:12 | So this is your plan.
5:21 | So this is a the house is going to stay
5:23 | in the exact same spot. Correct.
5:39 | The well is in the front.
5:41 | In the back.
5:42 | Oh, I see it. I said just a cover. Yes.
5:45 | Um
5:57 | So it says connect to existing sewer. So
5:59 | that's
6:01 | yes connect.
6:04 | You guys have any questions?
6:07 | Rob agent Ryan what we the house isn't
6:11 | there's nothing on the property now
6:12 | right there permanent variance but what
6:15 | for
6:16 | just the what?
6:17 | Just the seller. Okay.
6:24 | Previous house has been demolished.
6:26 | Yeah, it was um um
6:33 | Okay.
6:36 | So, you're stating what's existing on
6:38 | here. Can you just let us know?
6:40 | Uh right now, there's nothing on there.
6:41 | You said part of the something. Uh yeah,
6:44 | just the uh just the cell hole and
6:46 | there's some more of the the old stone
6:49 | foundation and that and that's going to
6:51 | be removed too. Not much of it is left.
6:55 | Excuse me.
6:58 | Okay.
7:00 | You have any other questions? Garrett,
7:01 | do you have any questions?
7:04 | No. I'd like to hear Curtis's timeline.
7:06 | All right. So, we want to call the
7:07 | building inspector enforcement officer.
7:11 | Good evening, Kurt Mascus, building
7:13 | commissioner, zoning enforcement
7:15 | officer. If you don't mind, I have the
7:16 | usual set of handouts. One for her, you
7:19 | get the planning, so you can follow
7:21 | along. Thank you.
7:23 | And uh
7:26 | yeah,
7:31 | get one out of there. Give it to the
7:33 | nice lady over here.
7:37 | this way
7:39 | and some of these around that way.
7:45 | You're welcome.
7:48 | So, the subject property is on Lake View
7:50 | Drive. It's a 30 by approximately 100
7:53 | foot lot. It was improved by a camp
7:56 | style building
7:59 | uh shown uh in the next page on April of
8:02 | 2022 when I was summoned to the site
8:05 | because a tree had crashed down upon the
8:08 | building. Um
8:11 | in October 2024, Mr. Bonavville
8:14 | undertook demol demolishing the rest of
8:17 | the building without a building permit
8:20 | and ran into some issues with hazardous
8:24 | material on the site. Currently 45 Lake
8:27 | View Drive, page three is a vacant lot
8:31 | and we show 51 Lake View Drive to the
8:34 | right. U that's incorrect because that's
8:39 | can't be on both sides. That's not 51.
8:41 | It's
8:43 | 47 or 49, something like that.
8:47 | And then 51 on the lower part of the
8:50 | page.
8:51 | 51's the red one
8:53 | on the top.
8:54 | On the top.
8:55 | Yeah.
8:56 | Oh, it is 51. What's the next one? The
8:58 | white one would be 57
9:03 | maybe. I don't know. It's down the
9:05 | street. So,
9:05 | you're the you're the little red one.
9:07 | I am.
9:07 | Okay.
9:08 | Yes.
9:08 | Thank you for helping me with that.
9:11 | Um,
9:13 | so anyway, the the lower part of the
9:15 | page is the next house to the right with
9:17 | with an incorrect number. Uh, 41 Lake
9:20 | View to the left and there is a common I
9:23 | believe it's a piece of town land um
9:26 | that gives access to the lake. Uh 29
9:30 | Sunset Drive extensions across the
9:32 | street and then 42 Lake View also across
9:37 | the street. And as I started to say in
9:40 | April of 2022, the house was struck by a
9:44 | tree. In October of 2024,
9:49 | um, demo was started without a permit. A
9:51 | stop work order was issued. Between
9:54 | November and December, we worked with D,
9:57 | the applicant to deal with the hazardous
10:00 | material on the site. In February of
10:03 | 2025, the demo permit was issued and
10:07 | approximately in March of 2025, the home
10:11 | was removed.
10:13 | So, we're in a sort of funky state here,
10:16 | right?
10:17 | There was still part of a structure in
10:19 | 2025, though.
10:20 | No, there hasn't.
10:23 | Well, there was a structure in February
10:26 | of 2025.
10:27 | Okay.
10:29 | And in March, it was removed. So in
10:32 | 2025, so we're March, so we're less than
10:35 | two years
10:36 | into it if there was still portion of it
10:38 | portion of it there.
10:40 | Yeah.
10:40 | Okay. So now we have two issues. The new
10:43 | the new zoning laws say that um a lot
10:48 | that's pre-existing non-conforming to
10:50 | area frontage or both and the
10:53 | renovations do not offend the setback.
10:57 | Um I could issue a permit by right.
11:00 | Right. But they do.
11:02 | But they do.
11:03 | Yeah.
11:04 | And then we have Mr. Bonavville's plan
11:07 | submitted with the application
11:11 | which shows a slightly larger house than
11:15 | what was there. But we have a five foot
11:19 | setback on one side, a 5ft setback on
11:22 | the other, which obviously offends
11:24 | current zoning setback of 15 ft. M
11:27 | and we have a 30 foot front and rear set
11:30 | back which you know we don't have a
11:32 | problem with. So
11:33 | right just the side set back
11:35 | so it would require 10 ft.
11:36 | So we require a 10T variance on each
11:39 | side
11:39 | side and a special permit
11:42 | because it's a pre-existing nonwarming
11:44 | lot.
11:45 | The slight increase is that due to
11:47 | overhang or is it actually just the
11:50 | layout? That's I mean we're talking you
11:53 | know a foot or two you know of
11:56 | additional
11:58 | is proposing to stay 5t off the property
12:00 | line at 5t we don't get into issues with
12:04 | building code and having to rate walls
12:06 | because we're within 5t of the property
12:08 | line.
12:09 | Yeah.
12:10 | Um so that that isn't an issue for my
12:12 | other half.
12:13 | Okay.
12:14 | And um as he said there is municipal
12:18 | sewage on the street and and you know
12:20 | they indicate that it's a well on the
12:22 | street or on the property
12:23 | on the property. Okay.
12:25 | So right now it's six or seven feet off
12:27 | the line
12:28 | probably. But I I don't I can only go by
12:32 | what the plan was because there was no
12:34 | survey done to my knowledge of the house
12:37 | location was you know my brothers would
12:40 | have been is is if we approach this is
12:43 | and and in 2022 2023 2024
12:48 | you know oh yeah you want to remove and
12:50 | replace this building let's go to ZBA
12:52 | we'll get a straight special permit to
12:54 | change alter extend under the the other
12:56 | regulations you know the previous law
12:59 | Now we're into Okay. It offends the
13:01 | setbacks. So, we need a special permit
13:04 | because the lot's on sides.
13:05 | Yeah.
13:06 | And need variances on the two sides
13:08 | because it offends the setbacks.
13:11 | We got 30 ft of furniture on this, too.
13:13 | Huh.
13:16 | Yeah. It's tight.
13:17 | They're all tight.
13:18 | Yeah.
13:19 | So, that's what I have, ladies and
13:21 | gentlemen.
13:22 | Yeah.
13:23 | Foundation. Same foundation or replacing
13:26 | foundation? We're replacing it with a
13:28 | stone foundation,
13:34 | but the new foundation hasn't been put
13:36 | in yet.
13:37 | Nothing's been done. Nothing
13:40 | you're getting all the permits this time
13:42 | first.
13:42 | Yes.
13:47 | Okay. Um, we have some more butters
13:50 | here.
13:51 | Yep. Me.
13:52 | Okay. You want to
13:55 | I know, right? I did her house, too.
13:57 | Oh, did you?
13:58 | If you just so she can speak and get in
14:00 | the camera, if we could have her sit
14:01 | there for a moment. Okay.
14:03 | You want to just come up, state your
14:04 | name and address for the record.
14:05 | Yes.
14:06 | And then just um
14:09 | if you have any comments on property, so
14:12 | I have questions.
14:13 | Okay.
14:14 | Um Kim Mason, nice to meet you. 51 Lake
14:17 | View Drive, Charlton. This um is very
14:21 | important to us. this house. My
14:23 | greatgrandfather and grandfather built
14:25 | this little camp that we live in and our
14:28 | neighbors are wonderful and we want to
14:29 | do right by them. We just want to make
14:31 | sure that the house does not become one
14:34 | of those extra McMansions and encroaches
14:36 | on our property. Um
14:38 | the property line is so thin as it is
14:41 | anyway and we've always gotten along
14:42 | with those neighbors. They're great.
14:45 | Um it's ours our house is a camp as
14:47 | well. It's not a it's not a year round
14:49 | home. It's a camp.
14:51 | season.
14:52 | And so, um, it looks like it's larger,
14:56 | which is what I was worried about. Um,
14:58 | and it looks like it's closer, which is
15:00 | also what I'm worried about because it's
15:02 | already so tight on both.
15:05 | So, how much closer do you think it will
15:07 | be from the old house?
15:09 | See, you can even if you went down there
15:11 | now, you would be able to see where the
15:13 | old property was because the hole is
15:15 | still there, right?
15:16 | And we didn't we haven't touched it. We
15:18 | haven't done anything to it. and we
15:20 | we're the only ones next to it,
15:21 | right?
15:22 | Um and you can see that that there's
15:24 | more than seven feet there. So going
15:26 | down to 5T would we would definitely
15:29 | feel that. I was more concerned about
15:31 | the height too. Like I'm worried that
15:34 | there's a there's a limit on the height.
15:36 | Um Oh, and and I get so I understand
15:39 | like you can't go out so you're going to
15:41 | go up
15:42 | and and that happens. But is the front
15:44 | are they going to be pushed more in the
15:45 | front? Is there going to be like an
15:47 | extensive porch put on the front that
15:50 | you
15:51 | I did see that.
15:52 | Yeah. So, are you considering this the
15:54 | front or this the front? The road I
15:56 | would consider as the front.
15:57 | Oh, I I thought you always talk about
15:58 | the lake as the front.
16:00 | When you have a lake house, it's always
16:02 | the front lake.
16:03 | No, because
16:05 | we
16:05 | Oh, my grandpa was wrong.
16:07 | Well, I I know what lake people do, but
16:09 | I'll give you my opinion.
16:10 | I'll do whatever you want.
16:12 | No, I believe you. And you're you're
16:14 | lovely. I just want to make I'm talking
16:17 | about lake frontage.
16:19 | I don't care about the road.
16:20 | I don't look at the road.
16:22 | I actually hate that road and I will put
16:24 | that on record that the road is terrible
16:26 | and that I get a river through my
16:28 | property which is a whole separate
16:30 | problem that Ry tried to actually help
16:32 | me with and we do have a rare running
16:34 | through my property.
16:35 | It does not appear that I mean this is
16:37 | it. It looks like they're going to be 37
16:39 | feet off of the road and then at least
16:42 | that off between the back of the house
16:44 | to the lake.
16:45 | They were further back than we were. Are
16:47 | they Are they supposed to be that way?
16:50 | Yeah. So, this is your exist. This is
16:52 | your house right here.
16:53 | Yes.
16:54 | So, that's the back of their house would
16:55 | equal the back of their house front.
16:57 | And what about their porch?
16:59 | This doesn't have a porch in it. This
17:02 | is putting one back on.
17:04 | This plane doesn't have a porch. How are
17:06 | they going to get down the stairs?
17:08 | There's going to be a deck in the back,
17:10 | but not but no porch in the front.
17:14 | It's um it's a little one, Joan. It's
17:16 | just to get out and then take a left and
17:19 | go down the stairs.
17:21 | How many floors is the house going to
17:22 | be?
17:23 | Two.
17:24 | So, do you mean what it used to have,
17:26 | which is like the basement seller with
17:28 | the rock cellar and then one floor, or
17:31 | do you mean two up?
17:32 | Uh yeah, it's going to have a basement.
17:34 | It's going to have the kitchen on the
17:37 | main floor and the bedrooms upstairs.
17:39 | So, it is going to be a lot taller.
17:41 | No, not really because um the the attic
17:43 | had uh pretty close to 7 ft.
17:47 | Although although it was a a kind of a
17:50 | A12 pitch, but um alls we're going to
17:53 | really do is keep it the same try to
17:56 | keep it in the same spot, the same size
17:59 | house, everything. But the only thing
18:01 | that's going to be different is that
18:02 | they're going to have a remodeled uh
18:04 | basement, better basement. Instead of
18:06 | having a dirt floor and
18:07 | yeah,
18:08 | dirt there and everything, it'll be uh 8
18:11 | foot walls.
18:14 | So there is a there is a limit in in
18:17 | town to the height of the building. What
18:19 | is it? 20 36 feet to the mean roof
18:22 | height from the mean grade.
18:25 | I was just studying statistics today in
18:28 | AP. I was like that means average. I got
18:31 | you follow that.
18:34 | That was good. Okay. 36.
18:36 | So that's the So that's the top of the
18:39 | roof.
18:40 | That's the peak.
18:42 | So that's that's the height that they
18:43 | could go. They can't go higher than
18:44 | that.
18:45 | Okay. Uh in terms of the overall
18:48 | footprint
18:51 | from what the the zoning enforcement
18:52 | officer tells us, it is slightly larger
18:54 | than what was there before.
18:57 | I'm I'm only relaying what is shown on
19:00 | the plans. I have no measure.
19:02 | It appears slightly larger.
19:04 | you know, it appears. So, the red line
19:09 | in the existing house and a little bit
19:11 | of green around the outside is and at
19:14 | this scale, which is
19:18 | telling me that it's uh
19:22 | 1 in equals 10 ft, which is about right.
19:26 | I mean, that's a little more looks like
19:27 | a little more than a half an inch,
19:30 | you know. You're talking like you said.
19:31 | Yes. It looks like it was might have
19:33 | been seven feet from the property line
19:35 | before and he's asking specifically to
19:38 | be
19:39 | 5T
19:43 | 5T.
19:44 | Now that's that's the board's decision.
19:48 | You know that you know that's why we're
19:49 | talking about a special permit and a
19:51 | variance.
19:55 | So the variance is the board's way
19:58 | decision
19:58 | decision to Yeah, you just get the
20:01 | information.
20:02 | What's this thing?
20:03 | It' be nice for more detail like an
20:05 | elevation. There's no depth on it.
20:07 | 767
20:09 | proposed roof drains. So, we have to
20:11 | deal with storm water management
20:15 | conservation.
20:17 | It's basically something
20:19 | roofed or something
20:23 | and then they get a new concrete wall.
20:26 | That's not
20:29 | That's conservation.
20:30 | Well,
20:31 | I wish that they could continue that
20:33 | into 51 Lake View.
20:35 | Well, okay. So, that two two things on a
20:38 | on a concrete wall at a lake. One, it's
20:41 | it's working within 100 ft of a well and
20:43 | you're you're on the lake. where almost
20:45 | anything you do.
20:46 | It sure is.
20:48 | Sure does.
20:48 | It does. And then um but if it is a
20:51 | retaining wall at the lake, then it
20:53 | would need a building permit, but it
20:55 | would be the building permit would be
20:56 | reviewed also by conservation because we
20:59 | work together around these properties.
21:01 | So if I ever got a cement front, then I
21:04 | would a cement wall by the lake, I would
21:06 | have to go through you guys, too.
21:07 | That's great.
21:10 | You should do it.
21:10 | Well, we don't want them to fall over
21:12 | and hurt people. Oh, I believe I
21:14 | understand. There's just a lot of steps
21:16 | and a lot of money.
21:19 | Okay. I hope it's not too close cuz now
21:22 | it's going to be taller.
21:26 | I hope it's not too close. That's all.
21:28 | But they're very nice and I want them to
21:30 | have their home back.
21:32 | Okay.
21:32 | That's all I have.
21:34 | So, generally, you're okay with this?
21:35 | I am generally okay with it. And I'd
21:37 | like for them to be able to have their
21:38 | home. And I've worked with Ray in the
21:40 | past. He is a nice man. He follows
21:43 | through.
21:43 | Thank you.
21:44 | You're welcome.
21:45 | Sounds like she would prefer it not be 5
21:47 | ft and stay at seven, but
21:48 | I would prefer I mean I would prefer
21:50 | that. I just don't want to screw over my
21:52 | neighbors, but I don't want to get
21:54 | screwed either.
21:56 | I I'm curious, Mr. Von. Is there an
21:58 | elevation plan?
22:03 | It's actually on here. You can see the
22:04 | elevation layout.
22:06 | No, that I think you're talking about an
22:08 | elevation of the building.
22:09 | Of the building. So, let me go look at
22:11 | my files. It might take me a minute to
22:14 | to print it out if you want to indulge
22:16 | me.
22:17 | I'm going to have Mr. Bonn come back. I
22:19 | don't mind unless you have anything else
22:21 | to add.
22:22 | I don't think you
22:23 | All right. Thank you. Uh, sir, do you
22:26 | have any
22:28 | Oh, no. I uh I'm the the new planning
22:30 | director here and
22:32 | Oh, I see. I'm sorry about that.
22:33 | I was working till 7. Your guys meeting
22:35 | started at 7:00, so I thought I'd come
22:36 | join see how you guys uh run your show.
22:38 | Nice.
22:40 | There is uh two steps
22:43 | down in the foundation.
22:45 | As the land goes on an angle like this,
22:49 | the foundation is going to sit like
22:50 | this.
22:54 | Mhm. Yeah. It'll be a step foundation.
22:55 | Yeah. So, it's going to be it the whole
22:58 | house ain't going to be no taller than
22:59 | 24 ft
23:02 | from the bottom from the bottom of the
23:04 | ground at the back. You don't know how
23:07 | tall the old house was, though.
23:09 | Uh well actually um it it had a dirt
23:15 | cellar.
23:15 | Mhm.
23:16 | And it was sitting on peers.
23:19 | So in the back it will keep the same
23:22 | height. In the front you have to keep
23:25 | the same height because that's how you
23:28 | walk out. You walk out. You're right on
23:29 | land
23:31 | in the front.
23:32 | This will have a walk out basement.
23:33 | Yes. Okay.
23:34 | This will so that's how you access the
23:36 | backyard.
23:36 | It is that big. It was already that big
23:39 | already. You can walk right in.
23:41 | Okay.
23:43 | You had mentioned something about a deck
23:45 | that I don't see on the plans. Is
23:47 | uh
23:48 | Is the deck on the side or is it in the
23:50 | back?
23:50 | No, it's in the back. Uh in the front
23:54 | by the lake.
23:54 | By the lake.
24:00 | Well, I mean, if as long as if the deck
24:02 | is within the setback, then I'm not
24:04 | really too worried about that. It's just
24:06 | so have 15 feet on either side.
24:09 | Right.
24:10 | Right. If we're going to grant them a a
24:12 | variance on either side anyways,
24:17 | unless you want to specifically exclude,
24:19 | you know, a deck or whatever, we're
24:20 | granting a variance.
24:23 | No, I I understand that. It's just
24:25 | without seeing it here to have the plans
24:27 | approved and then add a deck later on.
24:30 | Right. But I mean, so if we grant a
24:31 | variance of 10 ft on either side
24:34 | and they add a deck and it's within the
24:35 | rear setback, he's not imposing on that
24:38 | variance any further than we've already
24:40 | granted.
24:40 | So granting the variance to the house
24:43 | does not grant the variance to the deck
24:45 | also.
24:47 | I think if we're going to grant a
24:49 | variance for the structure, unless we
24:51 | specifically exclude certain things, I
24:53 | think it would include the deck. If they
24:55 | decide afterwards that as long as they
24:57 | don't offend that variance, I think it's
25:00 | I think and it's part of that structure,
25:02 | I think they're okay. I mean,
25:03 | okay,
25:04 | but that would be up to Kurt.
25:05 | I have a question.
25:06 | Yeah.
25:09 | Variance is only for both sides, not the
25:11 | back and front.
25:12 | You don't need one for the back and the
25:14 | front, right? So the deck is the deck
25:17 | would automatically be allowed once the
25:19 | permates
25:19 | if his point is is that if you decide to
25:22 | put a deck on afterwards, right, the
25:25 | deck is going to offend the setbacks.
25:26 | But my point is that if we if we grant a
25:29 | variance and the deck's attached to the
25:31 | structure, I think it it it kind of
25:33 | carries with it.
25:35 | That's what I'm I'm I'm going to have to
25:38 | disagree with you on that.
25:39 | You don't think so? No, because we would
25:42 | have a action
25:45 | by the board that says according to this
25:48 | plan
25:50 | and that plan does not include a deck.
25:53 | If this was if this was an existing
25:55 | building,
25:57 | okay, under the way 4A is written, yeah,
26:00 | it says I can grant a permit as long as
26:04 | the work does not offend the setbacks.
26:07 | So adding a deck the full width of the
26:09 | house would now offend the setback.
26:12 | That's what I was wondering.
26:13 | Yeah, that's if we that's if we say
26:16 | according to this plan.
26:18 | Well, I'm I'm trying to the the big
26:20 | printer is warming up again.
26:22 | Okay.
26:23 | And I have a sort of crappy copy of a
26:26 | plan for this house.
26:30 | In a moment.
26:30 | By that logic, they could have a shed
26:32 | down by the somewhere too.
26:34 | Oh, please don't do that. That happened
26:35 | on my other side.
26:36 | I'm not Not saying they should, but
26:38 | please don't
26:39 | you want to say something?
26:40 | I I did, but I I wanted to get Kurt's
26:43 | take on it of a of an approach to adding
26:46 | a deck later that he may disagree with.
26:48 | Ultimately, he's the zoning enforcement
26:50 | officer. So, it will ultimately be his
26:52 | call if it comes back here. But, um,
26:55 | under pre-existing non-conforming, if a
26:58 | variance is granted here, um, the
27:01 | building commissioner does have the
27:03 | authority to
27:05 | um
27:07 | to allow for
27:09 | some intensification. Um,
27:13 | but again, it's it's his discretion. So,
27:16 | I just wanted to see kind of what his
27:18 | his take on was that and he has a better
27:19 | understanding of our bylaw of
27:23 | what degree he can actually do that and
27:24 | it's hard to say or you don't have a
27:26 | plan in front of you. Is this beyond
27:28 | that threshold or not? Uh because it
27:30 | could be a kickback to the the CDA.
27:33 | Let me ask you this question. You said
27:35 | you're just going to build a stairway.
27:36 | What how what are you what are you
27:38 | looking at in the
27:40 | middle the house is this wide? The deck
27:42 | is this wide and it has to be because we
27:45 | need to have two means egress. One of
27:49 | them is off the back deck with emergency
27:51 | exit.
27:52 | Oh, so it's a deck and stairs.
27:54 | Basically a landing out the building
27:56 | with stairs.
27:57 | Where is it going to be?
27:58 | I had thought they exited through the
28:00 | basement out to the level of the grade.
28:03 | Oh, no.
28:06 | Okay. So, this is the plan that was
28:09 | presented as part of the application
28:11 | that started this action.
28:13 | Oh,
28:18 | that's a much bigger deck.
28:21 | Yeah,
28:23 | that's in a That's a deck deck.
28:27 | House.
28:33 | All right. We have more to change the
28:36 | plan.
28:39 | This is the plan that you submitted as
28:41 | part of the application bill.
28:43 | Yep.
28:44 | Can Can you uh we take a closer look at
28:47 | that?
28:49 | So, it's showing a 12 by 30
28:52 | two deck.
28:55 | They're showing the building on the
28:57 | Well, they have a nice ortho of the
28:59 | building. This would be the lakeside.
29:02 | They're showing the building is 26 I
29:07 | think I'm reading this right upside down
29:08 | 268 to the top on the street side
29:13 | and
29:15 | 33 ft to the top on the lake side
29:20 | that would be under the you know mean
29:23 | height and elevation. So under under the
29:26 | zoning bylaw, it is not exceed the you
29:29 | know allowed height
29:32 | 12 ft of the deck.
29:35 | We added that.
29:36 | What's the back of the house?
29:37 | Oh god, it I don't think I even need to
29:40 | It's coming to me.
29:41 | What's the rear set
29:44 | on that?
29:45 | Wow. It says that it's 1 in equals 10
29:49 | ft. So 10 20 30 40 50 If this is blown
29:55 | up to scale, well, that's an inch. So,
29:59 | it's saying that it's 50 feet from the
30:01 | lake. Add 12 ft, you're still more than
30:04 | 30 feet from the lakefront.
30:06 | Yeah,
30:08 | we really don't know the exact
30:10 | measurements.
30:14 | Of what, sir?
30:16 | Of the from from the back of this deck
30:19 | to the lake.
30:23 | We don't really know for certain.
30:27 | There you go.
30:30 | 1 in equals 10 ft. 10 20 30 40 50 55 ft.
30:36 | So that'd still be okay.
30:38 | So even with a 12 deck that deck that
30:40 | deck would offend, but still have to go
30:43 | get a permit for the deck
30:46 | if he did it after the fact if it's not
30:48 | in the building permit already.
30:49 | Sounds like
30:50 | Well, no, he said that is in the
30:51 | building. what was submitted is
30:53 | submitted with the deck.
30:55 | But you know from this plan right here
30:57 | is is that that deck is going to offend
30:58 | one side of the setbacks at least.
31:01 | Looks like both sides
31:02 | probably both with the stairs cuz the
31:05 | stairs are only
31:08 | does it say how wide the stairs are
31:10 | here? How wide are the stairs for the
31:12 | 3T 3T?
31:15 | Yeah. So it's still going to offend both
31:17 | sides. How wide is the building?
31:20 | How does it affect both sides?
31:22 | Well, we're giving the sides sep
31:24 | if we let them build it as it is.
31:27 | It wouldn't affect the sides any
31:29 | different. It would just be the rear.
31:31 | So, we're treating as the deck being a
31:33 | separate entity for the house.
31:35 | No.
31:35 | Well, no. The paper we were originally
31:37 | given didn't show a deck.
31:38 | Didn't show a deck.
31:39 | Oh.
31:40 | So, you were asking us for if we're
31:42 | going to grant you a variance according
31:44 | to the plan and there's no deck, you
31:45 | don't get a variance for the deck. You
31:47 | can't build the deck.
31:48 | Yeah.
31:49 | Oh.
31:50 | Well, we need to tackle because that's
31:52 | not a second egress. So,
31:55 | the options
31:56 | you only need a three foot landing and a
31:58 | set of stairs for the second egress. You
32:01 | don't need a deck.
32:03 | No.
32:06 | Is it silly not to have a deck on the
32:08 | lakefront property? Probably.
32:10 | If you're going to have the stairs, you
32:12 | might as well have the deck. No. Is it
32:14 | Does it
32:16 | What is it? Is it the size that's that's
32:19 | an issue?
32:20 | So, what's
32:23 | I was think I was
32:25 | What's that process?
32:28 | We can have him do that if you want.
32:30 | Well, it's not up to me. It's up to him.
32:33 | No, no. So, but he submitted the this is
32:36 | the plan that's submitted to the
32:38 | building department.
32:39 | This isn't this isn't the same
32:42 | layout that is to us to us.
32:45 | So, if
32:48 | If we grant a variance based on this
32:51 | right here,
32:52 | he can't do that.
32:53 | He can't do that because he didn't get a
32:54 | variance for all of those things.
32:56 | So, either he has to change this plan
32:58 | or he has to change that,
33:00 | right?
33:00 | Or he changes that,
33:02 | right?
33:04 | So, would he need continuation and
33:07 | change it? Would he need to withdraw and
33:09 | reapply?
33:10 | No, I don't think we need to withdraw
33:12 | something like that. I think we would
33:13 | just need a continuence to to amend have
33:16 | an amended plan.
33:18 | But do you do you want to go and get
33:21 | that? Do you want to have all that stuff
33:23 | on the plan be or and wait or do you
33:27 | want to just give them
33:29 | just wing it and give it to them? That's
33:31 | up to you guys.
33:36 | Well, we can't use the plan as our
33:39 | as our variance or our special permit.
33:41 | We would have to word it.
33:43 | We'd have to put it in the wording. We
33:46 | can't say as drawn on the plan, but it's
33:49 | not on the plan. So, do do you
33:51 | understand?
33:52 | Kind of.
33:53 | Yeah.
33:54 | It's just because the the deck is a I'm
33:58 | I'm looking at it as it's a different
34:00 | entity to the house
34:02 | because if whatever is granted to the
34:06 | house
34:08 | um would be
34:11 | granted, right?
34:12 | Because it's a separate entity.
34:15 | That's what they're saying. It's a tax.
34:17 | If we approve this as plans are
34:19 | submitted, this plan doesn't have a
34:20 | deck, which means you don't have a
34:21 | variance for the deck when you go to add
34:23 | that later.
34:24 | The deck has to be 15 off of the off of
34:27 | the side.
34:28 | Yeah, that's on a stairway. That's a
34:29 | deck.
34:31 | That's a 12 by 23 deck. That's a
34:34 | nice size.
34:36 | And we're not saying we have a problem
34:37 | with it or not. We're just trying to
34:38 | make sure that what we decide on is
34:41 | correct.
34:42 | Okay?
34:43 | Because what we were previously deciding
34:44 | on was this, which didn't show the deck.
34:46 | Now, this one shows the deck.
34:48 | Okay. So, I should change this with the
34:50 | deck on it. So,
34:52 | if you're going to do that, then I want
34:54 | I'd like to see better numbers exactly
34:58 | where the footprint is in relation to
35:01 | the uh where the proposed is it already
35:03 | lined out?
35:04 | Yeah.
35:05 | You already make Is it So, you don't
35:07 | know But you don't know exactly where
35:08 | the property line is, do you?
35:09 | Oh, yeah. It's been surveyed.
35:11 | Okay.
35:12 | Yep.
35:13 | So, I would suggest maybe the board have
35:16 | a continuence.
35:19 | What What day do we have until this?
35:21 | Um, November 11th.
35:22 | Okay.
35:24 | Have Mr. That's Veterans Day.
35:28 | Have Mr. Bonavville make any amendments
35:31 | that he would like to the plans
35:35 | and
35:38 | have the surveyor stake out the existing
35:44 | house and the proposed house on the
35:46 | property and we can go take a look at it
35:48 | and then the board could do a site visit
35:51 | so that it's very clear.
35:56 | Will they even be able to stake out what
35:57 | the old foundation was?
35:59 | Oh, it's still there.
36:00 | He says part of it with the stuff is
36:02 | still there. Yeah.
36:03 | Only only a portion is still there,
36:05 | right?
36:06 | The hole is still there, right?
36:09 | What I'm thinking is as they as they
36:11 | remove the foundation, they probably
36:12 | expanded the hole bigger than the
36:14 | foundation. I guess
36:15 | there wasn't much of a foundation there.
36:17 | It was just collapsed in, you know, dirt
36:20 | floor, stone camp foundation
36:23 | hanging on by a thread.
36:26 | Is that something you can do?
36:29 | What is being proposed?
36:32 | Putting the whole structure in the
36:33 | foundation.
36:34 | What Curtis is proposing?
36:36 | So, what we'd like is we'd like a
36:38 | revised plan showing the deck and any
36:41 | other stairs or structures that are
36:44 | going to be on the house. If we grant a
36:46 | variance, we want to grant a variance
36:48 | for the whole thing that you so you're
36:50 | not coming back to us in three months.
36:51 | Like, oh, by the way, we want a deck
36:53 | next spring. and then we have to revisit
36:55 | the whole thing. So we I don't any
36:57 | anything else that's going to be built
36:59 | as part of rebuilding the um
37:02 | the house that we don't want it all in
37:05 | one plan. The other thing that we want
37:07 | is it it seems that it's not
37:13 | exact on how much of a variance you need
37:16 | on the side setbacks. So from testimony
37:19 | from the neighbor and from what it
37:21 | appears on the plan there is that your
37:24 | new foundation might be two or three
37:27 | feet wider than the than the the
37:30 | previous structure. So we'd want to see
37:33 | exactly how many feet from the line on
37:36 | each side are you going to be on the
37:37 | house including where the deck is. So if
37:41 | we're going to grant a variance, we're
37:42 | going to grant a variance for the right
37:43 | number, not just kind of wing it.
37:46 | It ain't winging it. It has to be in
37:48 | that spot.
37:49 | No, we're not I'm not saying that it
37:50 | doesn't have to be in that spot, but if
37:53 | if if the house was What is that? It's
37:56 | 10 ft and you need seven. You're going
38:00 | to make me I can't do math. Um
38:05 | I did the new math. I just can't.
38:06 | So, if it was 72t off of the property
38:08 | line before, so you're looking at two or
38:10 | three feet on each side.
38:12 | Now, if it's five feet, then that's a
38:13 | three foot difference. You're looking at
38:14 | you're looking at a little bit wider of
38:16 | a house than what was existing there
38:18 | before.
38:19 | And not saying that we won't approve
38:21 | that, but we'd want to know.
38:23 | Okay.
38:24 | All right.
38:24 | Yeah.
38:25 | Sure.
38:26 | Is that what everyone you good with
38:27 | that?
38:27 | Basically, he just wants to see it on
38:29 | the plan.
38:30 | When's the next time that everyone can
38:31 | meet because we don't have to wait till
38:32 | November 11th.
38:34 | Exactly.
38:34 | What's it September?
38:36 | Just show show the setbacks.
38:37 | Does all the plants do that on the
38:39 | foundation? A a lot of a lot of
38:42 | engineers put them on there for us
38:44 | for the foundation.
38:45 | Yeah. They'll put exactly like how many
38:47 | feet?
38:47 | I've never seen one. I've I've always
38:49 | seen them on a plan.
38:50 | Yeah. They put And if there's an issue
38:52 | with the rear with the setback by the
38:54 | lake, then we'd want to see that.
38:55 | Well, this is So, you're telling me this
38:57 | is just foundation plan right here?
38:59 | Yep.
38:59 | So, basically, if you added the deck to
39:02 | the foundation plan, you wouldn't do
39:03 | that anyways. You'd have to do the other
39:05 | plan with the deck on.
39:09 | The house has it.
39:11 | Yeah.
39:11 | Does the board want to see the proposed
39:15 | house staked out on the lot
39:19 | and do
39:19 | Can you do that?
39:20 | I I don't I think if the engineer has it
39:24 | all in the plans and that's the engineer
39:26 | is the one staking it to begin with for
39:29 | doing the build. But it's it's up to you
39:31 | guys.
39:32 | We did it.
39:33 | You already staked it out.
39:34 | Yeah.
39:35 | All right. And
39:36 | I have a picture of the hole.
39:37 | Yeah. We we might do a site visit.
39:40 | Oh, okay. I didn't know if you wanted to
39:41 | see just to see if it's worth your time.
39:43 | Yeah, we'd like to. So, the the board
39:45 | would be its members um maybe stopping
39:50 | by and do a site visit. That's not going
39:51 | to be an issue.
39:52 | When When will that be? Can you give me
39:55 | time?
39:55 | I have no idea.
39:57 | I'll have the whole after the rains.
40:02 | That would be next week.
40:03 | Yeah.
40:03 | After the storms blow in
40:05 | like crazy this weekend.
40:09 | I just want to let you know though, if
40:10 | there's a tornado, my shed is all set.
40:14 | Okay.
40:17 | You guys are going to see me again
40:19 | because I live on uh 20.
40:22 | So, it would be 73.
40:24 | So, it wouldn't be before the this
40:25 | weekend. So, one day next week if if any
40:29 | member of the board wants to go, I won't
40:31 | schedule it because it's it's a vacant
40:33 | lot. So, it's not like there's somebody
40:34 | home or anything like that. Right.
40:36 | You know, if it's staked out, they can
40:37 | stop by and take a look. And it's not
40:39 | like they need to go and and they're not
40:41 | interfering.
40:41 | Be careful because it it is uh it is it
40:45 | is in rough shape right now. The stone
40:47 | wall that was in the front,
40:49 | we had to knock that down so that we can
40:50 | get in there and get things out. So, uh
40:53 | it is kind of a rough terrain.
40:55 | So, what is it?
40:57 | Just be careful.
40:57 | Today's the 21st. 22nd.
41:00 | May I show you what it was?
41:01 | 29 would be next Tuesday.
41:05 | You want to do two weeks? Can everyone
41:07 | do two weeks from tonight?
41:08 | Oh, so
41:11 | 29. So a week after the next
41:15 | No, it would be the first week in
41:17 | October.
41:20 | We have to dock. You can't h do.
41:22 | No, I'm just making sure. I'm going to
41:24 | New York and I'm going to Maine and I
41:26 | got some trip.
41:27 | Oh, you're no longer the vice chair and
41:29 | now that's it.
41:30 | Listen, trust me. I would have went no
41:32 | matter what. So, October October 6th
41:38 | through the chair. Can I show you guys a
41:40 | picture of what you're looking at?
41:41 | Sure. I can do October 6th.
41:46 | That's cool.
41:48 | Oh, okay.
41:49 | Yeah. If you could stake out
41:52 | and if we do if we do uh if any member
41:54 | of the board wants to do a site visit,
41:56 | it'll be after this week.
41:58 | You'll see it very well. You have a pen.
42:00 | I'm going to stick with
42:02 | I did
42:03 | Okay.
42:04 | From state to state, state to state,
42:06 | you're going to see exactly what
42:08 | Okay.
42:08 | Where the house is going to sit.
42:10 | Yeah.
42:10 | And um the the the
42:13 | setback from the lake
42:15 | Yeah.
42:15 | to the foundation.
42:17 | You're not looking for that.
42:18 | And you're not looking for a snake that
42:20 | goes from the snake out front. I'm more
42:23 | concerned about the sides unless unless
42:26 | the deck unless you're building a deck
42:28 | so big
42:29 | that it's going to offend between the
42:31 | lake and the house. So if you're going
42:32 | to be more than 30 if you're going to be
42:34 | within the 30 ft from the lake to the
42:36 | house with the deck then you're going to
42:38 | need to do that. But it's
42:39 | Oh, we're fine. We're fine.
42:41 | But if the deck is on the drawing the
42:43 | next time we meet
42:44 | Yeah. Any the deck
42:46 | So I'll have that done.
42:47 | Right. And and then exactly how many
42:49 | feet from the line to the side of the
42:50 | house. We I want to know that if we're
42:52 | going to grant if we're going to grant a
42:54 | variance on it, we rather do that. Can
42:56 | we do that? Can everyone do the six?
43:00 | I don't have We got one. No,
43:02 | we got one.
43:05 | Be good to see the the side lot line too
43:08 | though next to the house rather than
43:09 | just
43:09 | Well, there's a fence on that.
43:11 | You know, the the lot that the
43:14 | We can't do the 13.
43:15 | You can't do the six.
43:16 | No, I can do the 13.
43:18 | We cannot do the 13. So
43:21 | the 13th is I got to pick my wife up
43:23 | from the airport on the Friday.
43:25 | Well, it will not be here. So
43:27 | yeah, we cannot.
43:31 | The week after that's what the 20th week
43:34 | um if you want to. We do have an
43:36 | application on its way
43:39 | and I would depend if they're able to
43:42 | get the application in I would be able
43:44 | to have them as early as October 27th.
43:47 | So, if you'd like to combine both into
43:50 | that meeting, we can.
43:53 | I could do that and two days later.
43:55 | No, I can do the 27th.
43:57 | Does that work for you?
43:59 | Any day, every day works for me.
44:01 | Yeah, I can make the 27th.
44:02 | All right, we'll do the 27th and that'll
44:04 | work.
44:05 | Well, I just don't I I have some work
44:07 | function. I don't know what day it is.
44:09 | Um, this is October 27th.
44:12 | Today's the 22nd of It's a month.
44:14 | Okay. September.
44:15 | Yes. All right.
44:20 | All right. So, a motion to continue this
44:22 | till October 27th.
44:25 | I'll make a motion to continue to
44:26 | October
44:27 | 22nd. 27th, excuse me.
44:29 | 27th.
44:30 | Second.
44:30 | There's a second. All in favor say I.
44:33 | I.
44:33 | So, you're going to get us those things.
44:34 | Submit them to Dale for us.
44:37 | So, what was your question?
44:38 | What day is that for?
44:40 | On Tuesday.
44:41 | Tuesday. Tuesday.
44:42 | It's a Tuesday. We always
44:43 | We always try to meet on Tuesdays.
44:45 | Yeah.
44:47 | Okay. So, uh I'm going to get a plan um
44:51 | with the with the deck on.
44:52 | Yeah.
44:53 | And that'll match that.
44:55 | Yeah. So, whatever you going to put in
44:56 | the permit, you want to match with what
44:57 | you're going to do with us.
44:58 | Okay.
44:59 | Yeah. Because if we grant you a variance
45:01 | and it's not on there, then you may not
45:03 | be able to get it on the permit and
45:04 | you're back here three months from now.
45:06 | Yeah. And it has to be on there because
45:08 | it is it is not required for having two
45:11 | eresses.
45:12 | Yeah.
45:13 | And with the setbacks.
45:14 | Yeah. So at the deck with the setbacks,
45:19 | does the egress out of the bottom floor
45:21 | count?
45:23 | Excuse me.
45:23 | Does the egress out of the bottom floor
45:25 | count? Is there too?
45:26 | It's on It's on on the main is on the
45:29 | main floor.
45:30 | You need two on the main floor.
45:34 | All right.
45:35 | Thank you for your time.
45:36 | Do you want to discuss the um
45:41 | you print those out again?
45:43 | Yes. So, first you're on.
45:46 | Thank you.
45:48 | You're awesome.
45:48 | All right. Thanks, guys.
45:50 | Have a great Have a great evening.
45:51 | Um, we're provided with a draft
45:54 | application withdrawal form.
45:57 | So, um,
46:02 | didn't we talk about having a draft
46:05 | extension form?
46:06 | Yeah, we should have that, too.
46:08 | One at a time.
46:09 | We'll do one at a time. We got this.
46:11 | I'm sorry. I thought when I listened to
46:12 | the meeting, you guys said withdrawal.
46:14 | That's fine.
46:15 | Yeah, that's for sure.
46:17 | So, you guys want to accept this as our
46:19 | official uh withdrawal form?
46:22 | I make a motion to accept.
46:24 | Okay.
46:26 | Second.
46:26 | All in favor say I.
46:28 | I. Motion carries.
46:30 | Did you add in the changes already to
46:32 | this?
46:33 | I did. Yes.
46:34 | Okay.
46:34 | The section that we last talked about
46:37 | was 3.7.
46:44 | That was my favorite of all.
46:50 | I don't remember what I did.
46:53 | I believe
46:54 | I I had gave you some additional changes
46:56 | that I had forgotten before. That's in
46:58 | there too.
47:05 | You've taken all this. So, we pretty
47:06 | much went in agreement everything up to
47:08 | that point, right?
47:14 | All right.
47:18 | Still think we should have our annual
47:20 | meeting in Barbados.
47:22 | Sounds wonderful.
47:24 | We should have enough.
47:25 | I second that.
47:29 | I thought that sounds like a motion to
47:31 | me.
47:34 | Oh, wait. Now I have to sign for
47:35 | everything, right?
47:36 | Yes.
47:49 | It's okay. I waste the food.
47:52 | I didn't take the money.
48:04 | Have you ever once ruled out a bull?
48:07 | Yeah. Yeah. I've had to tell people to
48:12 | No g.
48:13 | That happened a few times and
48:16 | No. Yeah. Hilka. That happened. That was
48:18 | Hila was crazy. Um and then the landfill
48:22 | one
48:24 | the
48:26 | they appealed Cassella appealed.
48:30 | We had to get a special zoning officer
48:33 | for that. And because Kurt was within
48:36 | 300 feet of the landfill or was close.
48:39 | And um he couldn't he couldn't make a
48:41 | determination. So they they got the the
48:44 | zoning enforcement office from Lexington
48:46 | came out and made a deter. Were you on
48:48 | the board for that? No.
48:50 | You were on the board for that. Weren't
48:51 | you for
48:52 | Cassella?
48:53 | I forget.
48:55 | And Cassella hired some big
48:57 | environmental firm law firm in Boston.
48:59 | And they just they just kept trying to
49:02 | like we want to question the zoning
49:04 | enforcement officer directly. And I'm
49:05 | like no that doesn't doesn't work that
49:07 | way. You ask you ask and then I can ask
49:10 | the zoning enforcement officer. That was
49:12 | a little contentious.
49:16 | Um
49:21 | no personal attacks on applicants or the
49:23 | board.
49:25 | Just me
49:27 | jumping across the table.
49:29 | No, no, they were throwing at me.
49:32 | So, this right here, supplemental
49:33 | information section 3.10. The board will
49:36 | not consider any supplement information
49:38 | submitted less than 72 hours in advance
49:40 | of the public hearing unless deemed
49:42 | appropriate at the discretion of the
49:44 | chair.
49:46 | Do you want to have that in there? Do
49:48 | you want do you want to leave it just to
49:50 | the chair? Yeah, because we just got
49:52 | supplemental information.
49:53 | Yeah, we accept I accept everything, but
49:56 | I'm not always going to be the chair.
49:58 | I see
50:01 | you keep saying that.
50:02 | Well, it's just a matter of when my wife
50:04 | hits me with a shovel and buries me in
50:05 | the backyard, it'll be
50:08 | And does that include the acting chair
50:09 | if you're not here?
50:10 | Yeah, that's the vice chair.
50:12 | Yeah, it does. I would imagine.
50:14 | Like, does it need to say it or does it
50:16 | is it assumed?
50:17 | No, I think it's assumed.
50:18 | Okay.
50:20 | Do you want to leave that in there?
50:22 | So, I think that that kind of is a
50:23 | fallback
50:25 | that if we wanted to if we wanted to not
50:27 | allow extra documentation, right,
50:30 | that we could have the option to do
50:31 | that. Now, personally, I'm not if
50:33 | there's extra documentation unless
50:36 | unless the board says to says
50:39 | we shouldn't accept that, I'm going to
50:41 | accept every piece of document for the
50:43 | record that I can. time it's appropriate
50:46 | to use it or keep it as if there's a
50:48 | situation where it's like this is
50:49 | getting out of hand and I'm going to
50:51 | just nip it in the butt,
50:53 | right?
50:53 | You know, that's the only reason why we
50:55 | should actually keep it.
50:56 | All right.
50:58 | Yeah. Because you you can you can accept
51:00 | it, but if if not, we can just fall back
51:03 | or whoever the chair is.
51:08 | Change.
51:10 | The record just show the vote of you
51:12 | show the vote of everybody when you do
51:14 | the thing.
51:14 | I do. Yes. But you guys um talked about
51:17 | it maybe a few meetings ago. You were
51:19 | discussing it, so I just highlighted it
51:21 | just to bring it up in conversation,
51:27 | but I do always um show everyone's vote.
51:31 | Um on the voting part, I think I think
51:35 | that should be a concurring vote of four
51:38 | sitting board members should be required
51:40 | to grant special um
51:46 | I think there should be a reference to
51:47 | the statute in that. So I think it's for
51:51 | us to require four. If they change the
51:53 | statute then why would we keep four? You
51:56 | know what I mean?
51:57 | Okay.
51:59 | The statute says that we have to have a
52:00 | four-fifths vote for five members.
52:04 | So just eliminate the four votes and
52:07 | just take the current vote pursuant to
52:09 | Mass General law chapter 48 or something
52:11 | like that.
52:13 | That way if the statute chang
52:14 | change it again, we don't have to change
52:15 | this.
52:16 | We don't have to change it.
52:30 | draft decision of the board.
52:41 | The text of the decision of the board
52:43 | shall be considered. So
52:47 | during the board's a sitting member of
52:49 | the board will generate a draft.
52:54 | Isn't that what we typically
52:57 | doing?
52:59 | Yeah.
53:07 | So, it doesn't have to be a a member of
53:10 | the board or city member. It just has to
53:12 | be somebody.
53:16 | Well, no. I was just
53:18 | I don't think we need to put that in
53:19 | there. What do you think? And if you
53:20 | guys recall at our last meeting when we
53:23 | did 1.3 for the quorum,
53:26 | yeah,
53:26 | we took out the verbiage
53:29 | on sitting board.
53:33 | So we still have that language
53:36 | even though we took it out.
53:37 | Correct.
53:39 | Consistent.
53:40 | Yeah, I think you're right.
53:41 | With the um verbiage that we're going to
53:44 | use.
53:44 | I don't think we we should have that
53:46 | thing in there. I don't think we we've
53:48 | never done that.
53:50 | Um what we could do we have something in
53:52 | here.
53:57 | So just something for us to note as we
53:59 | continue to review the document we can
54:02 | make those edits as well.
54:06 | So if we took that out we can remove it
54:09 | completely.
54:09 | Yeah. The board's written decision state
54:11 | the specific findings of fact and
54:13 | reasons for a decision based on the text
54:16 | of the decision of the board shall be
54:17 | considered discussed and voted on.
54:19 | So we're just talking out the first
54:21 | sentence. We just take out the entire
54:23 | because we don't need that. We're not
54:24 | because no sitting member is going to
54:26 | write the decision. Dale usually writes
54:27 | the decisions. Mhm.
54:29 | Um, one of the things that we do do
54:31 | though is that on bigger and more
54:34 | complex appeals
54:37 | and uh petitions in the past
54:41 | uh we have
54:44 | um allowed
54:47 | the parties to draft proposed findings
54:50 | of fact and we can accept
54:52 | the lawyers do it
54:53 | right. So when there's sometimes we have
54:54 | lawyers on multiple sides and we'll say
54:57 | draft proposed findings of fact and then
55:00 | they'll we can just we just take and
55:02 | accept the ones that we want and discard
55:05 | the ones that we don't want.
55:07 | The lawyers look at each others and then
55:09 | we agree upon it.
55:10 | Yeah.
55:11 | Accept it.
55:13 | So we could put in there something like
55:15 | the board may
55:19 | except Do we have to put anything in
55:21 | there? I don't think we have to. I think
55:23 | that's
55:23 | No, you don't think we have to that
55:25 | ability to just do it.
55:28 | Well, what was our Didn't we have a
55:31 | whole section for
55:31 | Yeah, we pulled a lot of that stuff out.
55:35 | Yeah.
55:43 | We have 31 that talks about findings of
55:47 | fact.
55:50 | Correct.
55:59 | Yeah. I mean, so 311 kind of says that
56:01 | we could do that,
56:03 | right?
56:03 | Yeah. I think that's what we went over
56:05 | last
56:09 | so we don't have to add it again
56:12 | on the written part. We should take out
56:14 | sit in 3.12. We should take out sitting
56:18 | each board member. Just keep take the
56:19 | word sitting out.
56:26 | Same thing with 313.
56:28 | Yeah, we're going to take that whole
56:29 | first sentence out because no member we
56:31 | don't typically draft that. Gale drafts
56:34 | them. So or we'll get the findings of
56:37 | fact and incorporate. the on the bigger
56:40 | ones, I would sometimes
56:43 | do a proposed decision based on what
56:45 | agreed findings of fact and then we
56:47 | would the next meeting we would agree on
56:49 | the final decision and then submit it.
56:52 | We've done that once or twice.
56:56 | Um,
57:23 | it's 3.17. that changed.
57:30 | They extended it. They extended the the
57:32 | the time limit for a variance greater
57:34 | than one year in the in July, didn't
57:37 | they?
57:38 | I'm asking you.
57:40 | Me?
57:40 | Yeah.
57:41 | Oh, when I I started here, I didn't have
57:43 | ZVA. I'm like, don't need to learn that
57:45 | one.
57:49 | Um I think that that's changed.
57:51 | It's my belief that it has.
57:53 | You're right. So, we just want to change
57:54 | it to reflect whatever the statute is.
57:56 | Perfect.
57:56 | Yeah.
57:58 | And the one time extension has changed,
58:00 | too. I think that that's changed as
58:03 | well.
58:04 | Do you sign the decisions?
58:06 | Yeah.
58:09 | Know that.
58:09 | Yeah.
58:11 | Do you have a special pen?
58:12 | Yeah, I do.
58:13 | It's not auto pen.
58:15 | It's an auto pen. I got a Joe Biden auto
58:17 | pen right in the middle of me.
58:21 | Um
58:23 | it is two years now.
58:24 | It is two. Yeah.
58:26 | So right must be exercised
58:42 | two or three times.
58:45 | Really?
58:46 | We might have.
58:46 | I think so. I'm pretty sure.
58:49 | That's crazy.
58:59 | I don't think I have any other changes
59:01 | on this.
59:04 | Most of it has to do with Did you have
59:07 | any other changes?
59:09 | I submitted a lot last time. Um,
59:12 | I just I just found one.
59:14 | Yeah.
59:15 | Um, yeah. So if we just take out sitting
59:18 | out of the entire document, we don't
59:19 | have to go through and find the two
59:21 | code. No, you can do that. 118.
59:23 | Yeah.
59:24 | Um 319 is the next section that we had
59:27 | to deliberate the findings which is the
59:31 | reconsideration piece.
59:34 | If we just want to take another look at
59:35 | that prior it through
59:38 | prior to the written decision any
59:40 | sitting member Yeah. You take any member
59:42 | may request that the chair call a vote
59:45 | to reconsider the
59:48 | I don't have a problem with that. We've
59:50 | never done that since I've been here.
59:55 | We don't I don't think we meet
59:57 | enough often enough that we we would
1:00:01 | have we would make a decision and then
1:00:05 | have another meeting before
1:00:09 | because you file it usually with the
1:00:10 | town clerk within two days, don't you?
1:00:12 | Yeah.
1:00:13 | I have two weeks.
1:00:14 | You have two weeks. Yeah.
1:00:16 | Remember going in front of Wister takes
1:00:18 | two weeks.
1:00:18 | What if we keep this here and somebody
1:00:21 | calls for a new vote? We could blow past
1:00:24 | one of our dates, right?
1:00:26 | No, we've made the decision. So, I think
1:00:28 | we may
1:00:29 | What if it gets reopened
1:00:32 | after we've made a decision?
1:00:33 | I don't know the answer to that.
1:00:35 | Go to the next next meeting that we're
1:00:37 | in session.
1:00:38 | That's my point. So if we do that then
1:00:41 | technically speaking is if we made a
1:00:42 | vote and made a decision and it hasn't
1:00:45 | been filed with the town clerk and we
1:00:48 | could advertise another meeting within
1:00:50 | the twoe period and vote to reopen it
1:00:55 | we we could logistically do that. it
1:00:58 | would be pretty tight,
1:01:00 | right? Particularly if they're at the
1:01:02 | end of when the actual
1:01:03 | if that if they're at the statutory end
1:01:06 | of their timeline, I I don't know
1:01:09 | whether or not that impacts that or not
1:01:11 | because it says you need to make you
1:01:13 | need to open the hearing and make a
1:01:14 | decision by a certain date. So, if we
1:01:16 | were to reconsider the decision, I don't
1:01:18 | I have no idea whether or not
1:01:21 | Yeah,
1:01:22 | it's the first decision that goes to the
1:01:23 | statute or it's the second one if we
1:01:25 | would decide to reopen it. It's you've
1:01:28 | it's never happened.
1:01:29 | I've never done it. I mean, I'm sure
1:01:30 | it's
1:01:31 | there. So, the only reason it would come
1:01:33 | up is if
1:01:34 | No one's ever done it while we've been
1:01:36 | on the while I've been on the board.
1:01:38 | Yeah.
1:01:39 | I was putting my worst case scenario cap
1:01:40 | on and some board member didn't like the
1:01:42 | decision.
1:01:43 | Oh, he's worried you're going to retire
1:01:45 | and it's going to be
1:01:49 | That's what it is.
1:01:50 | You see how easily I
1:01:53 | see I caught that. You can't you could
1:01:56 | we get through of that.
1:02:00 | It's okay
1:02:02 | enough.
1:02:02 | I don't I don't see
1:02:03 | I don't see I think we should just leave
1:02:04 | it in there. I don't say we didn't need
1:02:06 | to do it in that.
1:02:06 | No.
1:02:07 | And then we already we did the
1:02:08 | withdrawal that can withdraw by notice
1:02:10 | from the applicant in writing. Any
1:02:12 | application may be withdrawn without
1:02:14 | present by notice from the applic.
1:02:16 | Can I correct that to include the form
1:02:19 | that you guys approved today?
1:02:21 | Yes.
1:02:21 | Thank you. Was it withdrawals that we
1:02:24 | were getting people assigned or was
1:02:25 | there extension? I can't remember what
1:02:26 | we're doing them right.
1:02:28 | Yeah.
1:02:29 | Okay. So, we should
1:02:30 | Yeah.
1:02:30 | But now we've got a form.
1:02:32 | And I'll work on the extension.
1:02:37 | Couldn't tell if I think that's correct.
1:02:40 | I thought it said withdrawal.
1:02:42 | So before before publication,
1:02:45 | they can withdraw themselves. after we
1:02:48 | publish and the meeting is set then they
1:02:50 | have to request withdrawal from us and
1:02:52 | we have to vote
1:02:54 | and if they're no show then
1:02:56 | then we can make a decision we can't
1:02:57 | withdraw them
1:02:58 | rightision
1:03:00 | we have to make a decision within the
1:03:02 | time frame set so some we've we've had
1:03:05 | that before um
1:03:06 | I was worried he might not show up
1:03:08 | I think that was
1:03:10 | that was five it was uh what's his name
1:03:12 | on 508 something about the post office
1:03:15 | parking hot
1:03:17 | and everyone was like, "We're making a
1:03:19 | decision on that." I'm like, "Okay."
1:03:20 | Oh, yeah.
1:03:21 | Yeah.
1:03:24 | With
1:03:26 | it accessories,
1:03:27 | something like that.
1:03:29 | Yeah.
1:03:30 | Yeah.
1:03:32 | Uh
1:03:33 | 41,
1:03:35 | the last sentence that says incomplete
1:03:37 | applications not accompanying by
1:03:39 | documents as required within the general
1:03:41 | filing requirements is may be denied by
1:03:45 | the board.
1:03:47 | Yeah.
1:03:48 | So
1:03:50 | do we have
1:03:52 | a process for that?
1:03:53 | Yes. So right now the full application
1:03:57 | has to be submitted to the town clerk. I
1:04:00 | think the the town clerk does an initial
1:04:01 | review, don't they? Or
1:04:02 | no.
1:04:03 | So they did the day submitted. If the
1:04:06 | implic she you'll review it. If the if
1:04:09 | it's incomplete, then it will get
1:04:11 | rejected and back out. So uh if it's an
1:04:13 | incomplete application, and we've had
1:04:15 | that happen a couple of times before.
1:04:17 | The reason why I ask is because it
1:04:19 | states that the denial is by the board
1:04:22 | and not by the clerk or by day. So if we
1:04:27 | have to change that particular language
1:04:29 | because it says the board reaches us and
1:04:31 | so we are the last here to actually
1:04:34 | receive.
1:04:34 | So we should just take the board
1:04:36 | information. So that's why I brought it
1:04:38 | up that we will need a revision to that.
1:04:40 | Yeah. So we just removed by the board
1:04:43 | just but may be denied.
1:04:47 | That's a good catch.
1:04:48 | Yeah, it is.
1:04:51 | And uh
1:04:52 | well what so what happened was on that
1:04:55 | is that the
1:04:58 | our recording person at the time
1:05:03 | someone was filing applications and I
1:05:05 | think they were like you know because
1:05:06 | they were only here on so before Dale
1:05:09 | the the person in her place before that
1:05:11 | was only here on Tuesdays and that was
1:05:13 | the only day of the week that she was
1:05:15 | here
1:05:15 | and the person before that was like that
1:05:17 | too. So we had someone coming in on like
1:05:20 | a Wednesday or Thursday. They would like
1:05:22 | slip it in the thing and say, "Oh, I you
1:05:25 | know, I dropped it off on Thursday." So
1:05:27 | now that's the day it starts. And there
1:05:29 | was this big thing. So now it goes to
1:05:30 | the town clerk and has to get stamped.
1:05:33 | So on the on the application, if there's
1:05:37 | something wrong or something not in it
1:05:39 | correctly,
1:05:40 | he gets rejected.
1:05:41 | It gets rejected. The clock doesn't
1:05:44 | stop.
1:05:44 | Yeah. It doesn't get denied.
1:05:47 | Doesn't get Right.
1:05:49 | Until it's complete. Yeah.
1:05:50 | Yeah.
1:05:51 | Can't make one application without it.
1:05:53 | It can't be denial.
1:05:54 | In 20 years, we've had
1:05:56 | we can deny
1:05:58 | one 40b application.
1:06:01 | So, so this board is not only has the
1:06:05 | authority for
1:06:08 | um
1:06:08 | I didn't know
1:06:09 | we have we have the authority for
1:06:12 | appeals, special permits, variances and
1:06:15 | affordable housing under chapter 40B
1:06:17 | that that goes doesn't go to the
1:06:19 | planning board comes to us. But we've
1:06:22 | had one full application in the 20 years
1:06:24 | we've been here and one amendment. Both
1:06:26 | of those times this board and worked
1:06:29 | very closely with the planning board
1:06:31 | because we don't have the ability to do
1:06:33 | peer review or anything like that. So,
1:06:34 | we would probably go to the planning
1:06:36 | board and ask for their assistance uh
1:06:38 | for some of those things.
1:06:42 | Why did we even get in the middle? Why
1:06:43 | doesn't it go to the planning?
1:06:44 | It's just the way the statute's written.
1:06:50 | We they had one that was they were
1:06:52 | talking about in a previous town
1:06:54 | administrator said, "Oh, well, we could
1:06:57 | probably just do it through the Sugman's
1:06:58 | office as a friendly thing." I was like,
1:07:01 | I it never came to fruition, so it's
1:07:03 | never a big deal, but I'm like, "Yeah, I
1:07:05 | don't have the authority to do that."
1:07:06 | Friendly.
1:07:07 | Yeah.
1:07:10 | Let's go call it.
1:07:11 | Um,
1:07:15 | one one thing going back to that one
1:07:18 | that we were just on.
1:07:19 | Yeah.
1:07:19 | If we're pulling by the board
1:07:24 | requirements may be denied
1:07:27 | within the front
1:07:32 | may be denied just period. Yeah.
1:07:36 | So that's not talking about the whole
1:07:39 | application itself just the submitt.
1:07:42 | What do you mean?
1:07:44 | So basically an application come in. Oh
1:07:46 | this
1:07:48 | This isn't filled out, right?
1:07:50 | Yeah.
1:07:50 | Okay. You're getting denied.
1:07:53 | So, off of denial, how long do you have
1:07:56 | before you can reapply?
1:07:57 | The next day,
1:07:58 | you can just go off next day.
1:08:00 | Well, you want to change it to
1:08:02 | So, it's not like
1:08:03 | all the denying.
1:08:04 | We're not denying the application. We're
1:08:06 | just denying the the the submission.
1:08:08 | That's all I That's all I want to
1:08:09 | clarify.
1:08:10 | So, should we put the submission be
1:08:12 | denied?
1:08:12 | Well, it says applications.
1:08:14 | So, it's not
1:08:16 | Okay. Yeah. As long as
1:08:17 | incomplete application is not
1:08:18 | accompanied by all documents required in
1:08:20 | the general filing committees.
1:08:24 | Should I put rejected?
1:08:26 | Yeah, put rejected. Change it to
1:08:27 | rejected.
1:08:28 | Just so we don't want any confusion in
1:08:31 | that part. Oh, you were denied on that.
1:08:33 | You know,
1:08:34 | are we good otherwise? What do you
1:08:36 | think?
1:08:37 | You feel good?
1:08:38 | Feel good.
1:08:40 | We can make the changes and I'll bring
1:08:42 | the
1:08:43 | and we'll just vote on it next time.
1:08:44 | Yes. Anything else that we need to do
1:08:46 | tonight?
1:08:47 | Yes, you did skip number five.
1:08:49 | Oh, no. What's
1:08:51 | Yeah.
1:08:52 | Oh, recommendations.
1:08:53 | Yes, we
1:08:54 | But Mary Beth isn't with us tonight.
1:08:57 | Kazinski.
1:08:58 | Uh oh, someone new for the board.
1:09:02 | Yeah. So, so this is Mary Beth Kazinski.
1:09:05 | She lives on Masonic Home Road. She's
1:09:07 | applying to the our board. Do we How
1:09:10 | many we have? Two.
1:09:11 | Six. So, we have enough room for one
1:09:13 | more, which I think um she's a mental
1:09:17 | health counselor. She's happy to provide
1:09:20 | her resume and request. She's got a
1:09:21 | master's degree. I think we should make
1:09:24 | a minimum requirement at least a PhD by
1:09:27 | everyone going forward.
1:09:29 | She have after meeting sessions.
1:09:31 | Yeah.
1:09:34 | Um yeah, I'm fine with that. Do you want
1:09:36 | me to make a vote on this? Does anyone
1:09:38 | want to
1:09:39 | recommend them
1:09:39 | to recommend the seleman nominate Mary
1:09:42 | Beth Kazinski? Does anyone want to make
1:09:45 | a make a motion? You're going to make
1:09:46 | the motion
1:09:47 | make a motion
1:09:48 | to uh to nom to recommend Mary Beth
1:09:52 | Kazinski.
1:09:53 | Second
1:09:53 | as an alternate member of the board.
1:09:56 | There's a second by Rob. All in favor
1:09:57 | say I.
1:09:58 | I.
1:09:59 | Motion carries.
1:10:02 | All right. Any other things we need? Is
1:10:04 | there a motion to
1:10:07 | end the meeting?
1:10:08 | Motion to adjurnn.
1:10:09 | Is there second on the motion? All in
1:10:11 | favor say I. I.