2026-08-04 - Transportation Committee

00:06Michael, you need like a clapper.

00:09Like for movies.

00:11Ooh.

00:12And it's like and action.

00:15>> It's like clapper?

00:17>> Yeah.

00:19No, like

00:21>> Or we could get those hands.

00:22>> Ooh, even better.

00:24Those are clappers.

00:27No, like one of these numbers.

00:30>> [laughter]

00:31>> No, that's a hook. You need a hook for

00:33that one, babe.

00:34>> That would be the wrong thing to do.

00:36Didn't I think Kelly used to have a

00:40He had a hook and say

00:42>> Oh, that's fun.

00:51>> [snorts]

01:00>> We are now ready to go if you guys are

01:01ready.

01:02>> All right, I'm going to call the

01:04Transportation Committee meeting to

01:05order. Can I get a motion to approve

01:07minutes?

01:08>> I'll make a motion [snorts] that we

01:10that we approve the minutes.

01:12>> Second.

01:13>> Thank you. Those are approved. We have a

01:15presentation by NCDOT about a stoplight

01:19removal. I want to remind everybody

01:20we're all friends here. We're going to

01:22have a nice chat.

01:24Learn what we need to. Thank you.

01:27>> Good morning. My name is Ryan Newcomb.

01:28I'm the Division 9 Traffic Engineer for

01:30NCDOT Division 9. I'm also here with

01:32Mazie Tucker who's our Deputy Division

01:34Engineer. So, Michael asked us to come

01:38present to you all about a

01:40proposal we had sent to him a few weeks

01:42ago regarding the intersection of Fisher

01:44Ferry Street and Holly Hill Road here in

01:45Thomasville.

01:47Those are SR 2813 and SR 2060.

01:51So, just briefly I have some slides to

01:53kind of give you some background about

01:55how we got here.

01:56So, this intersection um has been

01:59signalized for a long time.

02:01Um, if you are familiar with the area,

02:03you probably know that the uh signal

02:05cabinet is pole mounted

02:07uh and has been struck uh by vehicles on

02:09several occasions.

02:10Um, it's currently uh in a state of uh

02:13somewhat disrepair and needs to be uh

02:16replaced.

02:17Um, and that's what sort of started

02:19driving this conversation. Um,

02:21so uh as my staff brought this issue to

02:24my attention, I um you know, started

02:26looking into what it would take for us

02:27to get this cabinet off of the pole and

02:30get it ground mounted uh away from

02:32traffic. Um, some of the things that

02:34we've identified at this location is

02:36that uh right-of-way is limited. Um, it

02:38looks like on the tax map that we are

02:40are pretty pretty tight. Uh, generally

02:42speaking, where the uh utility poles are

02:44located generally serves as the

02:46right-of-way line, so

02:47uh you can see how close they are to the

02:49pavement, uh which would give you an

02:50indication that uh in order to resolve

02:53this, we'd probably have to acquire some

02:54sort of right-of-way or easement uh from

02:56the one of the adjacent properties.

02:58Um, the other things we've identified

03:00here is that the exist existing single

03:02span uh is currently too close uh to uh

03:06the existing overhead power. Uh, there

03:09Duke Energy other power utilities have a

03:12standard uh separation from their

03:14neutral lines uh that's supposed to be

03:1630 in away. Right now, we're mounted um

03:19about 2 in underneath it along with the

03:21other communication facilities that uh

03:24ride on the same pole line.

03:26And uh like a lot of intersections, um

03:28you know, it's been a long time since

03:30this one was re-re-rewired, rebuilt.

03:33Um, and so it could probably use a

03:35complete overhaul.

03:37So as we started uh pricing those

03:39things, and in this photo, you can see

03:41uh how close we are to the power

03:43attachments.

03:44Um,

03:45to just acquire a corner clip that would

03:47be wide enough to get a uh a cabinet

03:51ground mounted, um,

03:53talking with our project development

03:55team, our right-of-way unit, um, we put

03:57a placeholder there $15,000. It's not a

03:59lot of square footage, but should we run

04:01into a property owner that doesn't want

04:03to negotiate or we have to get an

04:05appraisal done, uh, you know, or heaven

04:08forbid file a condemnation, uh, just for

04:10a small clip, um, we put a buffer in

04:12there for that. Uh, the big ticket item

04:15is the utility relocations to get taller

04:17poles put in on two corners. Uh, you

04:19have to go back down the line from the

04:21intersection. Uh, those poles, uh, the

04:24height that we would need, uh, generally

04:26run in the 40 to 50,000 dollars per, uh,

04:29pole range. And so, uh, that would be a

04:32a heavy expense to try to get the

04:34utilities, uh, elevated here.

04:36Uh, we would need some engineering work,

04:38uh, for both the survey of the

04:40right-of-way acquisition and then

04:42updating the signal plan. And then

04:44rewiring, uh, and ground mounting the

04:46cabinet would be, um, about 130,000

04:49dollars. So, all told, uh, we're looking

04:51at a potential 400 to 450,000 dollar

04:54endeavor, uh, to try to get this cabinet

04:57removed off of the pole, uh, and on the

04:59ground.

05:00So, when I see a number like that,

05:01knowing that my entire budget for

05:04secondary signal maintenance in all of

05:05Davidson County is approximately 360,000

05:08dollars a year, um, I started asking

05:11some more questions and we started, uh,

05:13pulling some more data at this location.

05:16Um, so what we found is that, uh,

05:18average, uh, annual daily traffic

05:20volumes on the approaches, uh, we have

05:22some, uh, count stations in close

05:24proximity to the intersection on both

05:26both routes. Uh, those ADTs, uh, have

05:29declined year by year, uh, you know, for

05:32more than the last 10 years.

05:34We did a turning movement count, uh,

05:36back in November of 2025 when this issue

05:38first arose, um, and based on that

05:41turning movement count, uh, looking at

05:43AM, midday, PM peaks, um, looking at the

05:46full 4-hour and 8-hour warrants for

05:49traffic signals, the current volumes at

05:51this location don't meet the the

05:53warrants for a traffic signal. So, in

05:54other words, in other words, if we

05:56didn't have a signal there today and and

05:58we were asked to analyze this

06:00intersection and consider it,

06:02we wouldn't put a traffic signal there

06:04because it doesn't meet the volume

06:05warrants.

06:07And so, I took the the the volume data

06:09and we modeled the intersection as it

06:12currently is as a traffic signal and

06:14then we considered what it would be like

06:15in an all-way stop condition.

06:18And one of the reasons that I leaned

06:20towards an all-way stop is that in the

06:21last 12 months, we've had and and our

06:26friends here from the police department

06:27can probably attest to this,

06:29we've had five crashes where vehicles on

06:31Holly Hill have actually run the red

06:33indication. And looking at 5 years'

06:36worth of crashes, that pattern has it

06:39carries over from year to year. And so,

06:41one of the ways that we could

06:42potentially curtail that, knowing the

06:45volumes that we have at this location

06:46would be to implement an all-way stop.

06:48It's much more likely that I could avoid

06:51the collision of someone who's not going

06:52to stop at that stop sign if I'm already

06:54at a stop condition versus driving

06:56through on a green indication.

06:59We've also had some left turn same

07:01roadway crashes here

07:02on both streets and so again, an all-way

07:05stop could help curtail those crashes.

07:07Um

07:08So, we feel like it would be a safer

07:10alternative.

07:12And the volumes that we have out there

07:14today, the all-way stop would function

07:16actually slightly better than the signal

07:18currently functions and part of that's

07:20because um

07:22running just minimum green times on your

07:23main lines, when there's not a lot of

07:26traffic there, you're sort of

07:27arbitrarily delaying the side streets.

07:30Whereas, if I pull up to an all-way

07:31stop, there's no one coming on the other

07:33approaches, I I can proceed.

07:35Um and so, here are some numbers that

07:37kind of kind of back that up a little

07:39bit. I've got uh of service grades, uh

07:42you know, A, B, C, and D, um and then

07:44the associated vehicle uh a delay per

07:47vehicle, seconds per vehicle that we we

07:49got from the model. Uh looking at the

07:52existing signal condition today, we see

07:55uh anywhere from, you know, two to even

07:57more than that seconds uh per vehicle

07:58delay improvements, um

08:00particularly on the the westbound Holly

08:02Hill approach, uh where again you're

08:04you're uh stopping that movement, um if

08:07even if there's nobody coming until

08:09the signal gaps out.

08:11So, uh in light of the the fact that uh

08:13it performs a little bit better, um and

08:16then also still with the volumes we see

08:18today, uh the all-way stop would have

08:20some capacity. Uh so, in other words, if

08:22we start to see growth in this area, if

08:25uh things redevelop, uh for instance,

08:27and we start to see traffic pick up, the

08:29all-way stop would still function pretty

08:31well before we would be back in a

08:32situation where signalizing the

08:34intersection might be required.

08:36Um and so, from our vantage point, we

08:38can implement this all-way stop for

08:40probably less than $5,000.

08:42Um and uh that that would include uh

08:45wrecking out uh some of the signal

08:47equipment once the all-way stop is

08:48implemented. So, from a dollars and

08:50cents standpoint, uh as a department, uh

08:53knowing the numbers we see from a

08:54traffic standpoint and how it models, it

08:56just made sense to us uh to go forward

08:59with this. And so, we wanted to present

09:00this information to you, kind of make

09:02you aware of what's uh what we found and

09:04what we've seen, and then try to answer

09:05any questions that you might have.

09:12>> So, thank you for the presentation, but

09:14when a uh change or shift is made in

09:16this kind of area, where it's been uh

09:19traditionally a light for so long, what

09:21kind of procedures are put in place to

09:23help ensure people that just have some

09:25of that muscle memory,

09:26>> Sure.

09:27>> that might not even really realize that,

09:29you know, it's a four-way stop, just

09:30because they've just been here so long.

09:32What what are we putting in place to

09:33ensure that, you know, um we're curbing

09:35some of that?

09:36>> Yeah, absolutely. Good question. So, we

09:37would first off do a press release. We

09:40would put up variable message signs on

09:41each approach probably 2 weeks in

09:43advance to say new traffic pattern

09:45coming. And then when we do a new

09:46implementation like this, we always add

09:49stop ahead signs on each on the

09:50particular on the approaches that you

09:52know are not the main line the main line

09:54that's used to having that green

09:55indication. But we'll do stop aheads on

09:57all approaches. And then you know, your

10:00average stop sign if you were to go

10:01through the the neighborhood, you'd

10:03probably see stop signs that are 30 in

10:05uh maybe a 36-in wide stop sign. When we

10:08do an implementation like this where

10:10we're doing a drastic change, we'd

10:11probably start with our 48-in stop sign.

10:13So, I call them the big boys. So, we'd

10:16put the big boys out there. We'd

10:17probably put 36-in wide stop aheads.

10:20We'd have flags on them as well for the

10:21first month or so of the implementation

10:23just to so that it stares you in the

10:25face when you approach the intersection.

10:29>> I'm not going to be able to speak

10:30intelligently about this, but I'm

10:31remembering conversation

10:34about Fisher Ferry and there are plans

10:36to straighten it out

10:39at some point.

10:41Yes?

10:45Yeah.

10:46But it's not near this. I mean, it's

10:48near it. It's on the same road. But my

10:50concern, and I know this is just going

10:52to happen and it's going to be fine. I'm

10:54concerned and maybe this is something

10:55that our folks our police need to be

10:57aware of. When we straighten that out

10:59and make it a runway to this

11:00intersection

11:02that we're going to have issues

11:05um with people approaching that much

11:07faster without a light. But I just

11:09wanted to

11:10to put that out there

11:12because I don't know when that's going

11:13to happen. I feel like they've been

11:14talking about it for 300 years.

11:16>> Yeah, I'm not sure about the

11:19Okay.

11:24Okay.

11:25>> I think people are going to fly.

11:27>> They already treat it as a racetrack.

11:30>> [laughter]

11:30>> It's going to get worse. Yeah.

11:33>> At least from the city.

11:35>> Okay.

11:37>> Is that part of the bridge replacement

11:39project?

11:39>> that's what it

11:40>> Okay, the bridge replacement project

11:41there. Okay, that's where we I think

11:43we're still

11:44I think we're still facing some

11:45challenges with the railroad if I'm not

11:47mistaken.

11:47>> Classic.

11:48>> Yeah, so

11:50>> [laughter]

11:51>> Shocker there. Um

11:52No, this is on the record here. Um

11:55>> [laughter]

11:55>> So, um yeah, so I'm I'm not sure what

11:57the timeline is, but I don't I don't

11:59believe uh

12:00it may it may be programmed in this

12:02current fiscal year.

12:04Um but, you know, at this point uh my

12:06staff uh you know, we're ready to to

12:09implement this. So, the the silver

12:10lining there would be is that we could

12:12get this condition in place before that

12:14work happens. Uh so, that hopefully

12:16traffic that uses this route regularly

12:17would be used to the always stop

12:19condition. Yeah.

12:22>> I mean, they they already use that area

12:24right there as

12:27a race track.

12:29I mean, my concern is I mean

12:32my concern is that if you put the

12:34four-way stops up there, I mean, they're

12:36not going to stop and somebody's going

12:38to get seriously hurt there. I mean,

12:39there was just a wreck there the other

12:41day

12:42at that intersection.

12:44>> I live at this intersection, and it's

12:47horrible.

12:48And I think that if you remove the stop

12:50light, it's going to get even worse. And

12:52my husband is a police officer in

12:54Thomasville, so

12:57he's already

12:59issued concerns about it as well, so

13:02>> Yeah, so um again, one of the things I

13:04mentioned was that the crash pattern

13:06that we've seen here

13:07um it is actually the things that are

13:10happening there could actually be based

13:12on, you know, the research we have at

13:13the state, could be actually curtailed

13:16by an always stop. Now, whether you have

13:18a red light or you have a stop sign,

13:19there isn't a lot that can be done from

13:21a police officer standpoint or traffic

13:23engineer standpoint about someone who's

13:25going to disregard that traffic control

13:26device. So, we run that risk no matter

13:29what kind of traffic control device we

13:31install there.

13:32But, the pattern we have seen there is

13:34actually from the what we would consider

13:36the minor street approach, the one

13:38that's not getting the green time all

13:39the time, Holly Hill, is is people

13:42running that red light. And and what

13:45happens there is if I'm coming on Fisher

13:46Ferry and I see a green indication, I'm

13:48going through that intersection. And I

13:50don't know that that guy coming down

13:51Holly Hill is not going to stop at his

13:53red, and he's going to plow into me. Um

13:55but, the silver lining there would be if

13:57I've come to a complete stop at a stop

13:59sign, I'm going to look and gauge that

14:01traffic, and potentially have the

14:03ability to avoid that crash. Could

14:05something serious still happen there?

14:06Absolutely.

14:08And that's something that we would

14:09consider,

14:10and that's something we would continue

14:12to observe. We wouldn't wreck the signal

14:14equipment out day one, just so you know.

14:16We implemented one of these in

14:17Mocksville a couple months ago

14:19at their request of the town,

14:21and we left the signal equipment in

14:23place just to make sure that we weren't,

14:25you know, opening a can of worms,

14:27and needed to turn that thing back on.

14:29But, thankfully, that always stopped at

14:31a at a intersection that's actually got

14:32some pretty weird geometry, the way the

14:34legs attach,

14:36has been working very well. And the town

14:38actually informed us last week that they

14:39went ahead and removed the signal

14:41equipment. So,

14:42so we have, you know, seen this in some

14:44other areas within the division where it

14:45just made sense to implement it,

14:48and it's worked.

14:49But, so I certainly understand the

14:51concerns.

14:51>> So, was that something that we're going

14:53to do? We're going to leave it up to see

14:55how it functions.

14:55>> Yeah, we would we would not, you know,

14:57wreck out the equipment day one. Yeah,

14:59definitely.

15:00>> I appreciate you coming and sharing that

15:02with us. It's not something we've always

15:03had in the past, so I appreciate it and

15:06hearing our our thoughts on it.

15:07>> Yep.

15:07>> Yes.

15:08>> Thank you.

15:10>> Thank you.

15:10>> You're welcome.

15:11>> Yep.

15:13All right.

15:14You got any other business?

15:16>> No other old business.

15:19>> Cool. I don't get to transportation

15:20committee very often, so this has been

15:22fun. Thank you for being here. Um I did

15:25talk to Michael and we're going to get

15:26an update in the coming months about

15:28street paving because I know it's going

15:29to look different this year cuz our

15:31budget looks different this year, but

15:33they're working on getting that. It's

15:34not happening right now or pressing, so

15:38we will hear from them later, but I

15:39think that's it. Can I get a motion to

15:41adjourn?

15:42>> Second.

15:43>> So moved.

15:45>> You're not on there.

15:46>> You got two.

15:47>> Um I make a motion that um

15:51we adjourn.

15:52>> Second.

15:53>> All right, we're adjourned.

15:54>> Good day.

15:56>> Let's take a break.

15:58>> [laughter]

16:03>> No, that one is. We're going to go to

16:05buy now.

16:05>> Okay.